Friday, February 5, 2010

Larry Wilson's Column On The Tactics Of The Police Officers' Association (POA)

On February 2nd Larry Wilson published a column in the Pasadena Star News called We're all the victims when police union lawyers bite. And it is a pretty good analysis of how Lackie, Dammeier & McGill get things done for the many POAs they represent, including the one our Police Officers call their own.

Now much of what Larry cites in this article from Lackie (etc) has been discussed in other places before, including on this blog. The tactics employed by these folks are ruthless, yet have often been effective for those they represent. But what impressed me about this particular column from the sometimes maligned Mr. Wilson is his description of how exactly this negotiating dynamic works. In my opinion he pretty much nails it.

For 20 years, smart and greedy lawyers have shown police unions how to pressure dumb and gullible politicians into giving officers too much in both salaries and benefits. Not too much in a perfect world - just too much in the one we live in. We know what the lawyers have advised officers' associations to do - guilt trip the electeds, give money to their campaigns, use crime as a wedge issue in order to scare the public, use work slowdowns and the blue flu to get what you want.

Some pretty good screed there. So what I'm doing today is reposting an article that first appeared on The Tattler way back on April 17 of 2009, along with the original 23 comments. (New comments are welcome, of course.) Not sure how many of you have seen any of this because it was written when the readership of this blog was not quite as prodigious as it is today. But please keep in mind what Larry describes above as you read this column. Because as Sierra Madre goes into negotiations with our police officers and their union on a new MOU, we will need to keep these lessons in mind.

How The Police Officers' Association (POA) Got Business Done (Tattler - April 17, 2009)

In what was probably one of the most extreme cases of "Little Miss Sunshine" syndrome I have ever read, the Mountain Views "Observer" on 12/21/07 ran the following giddy headline.

Sierra Madre And Police Reach 'Historic Agreement' - "It ends years of discord between the city and POA" - Mayor Joffe

Discord that resumed a few short months later after the passage of the Utility User Tax hike with a Police Officers Association initiated lawsuit against the City of Sierra Madre. Apparently this short love match was only a one-sided affair, with this caddish Police Officers Association quickly leaving (by then former) Mayor Joffe at the altar. Oh, and the taxpayers of Sierra Madre holding the very large bill both parties left behind.

The MVO article continued with this little bit of unmedicated delirium:

"Everyone clapped, cheered and shook hands as the City Council approved during a special meeting Tuesday night, the first police pay raise in years. The increase is subject, however, to Sierra Madre voters approving an increased Utility Users Tax on April 8, 2008."

Of course, not everyone was quite that chipper. Many who read the agreement worked out by Mayor Joffe and the POA realized that this, along with a much higher UUT rate, was going to be a large new financial burden on the City's taxpayers. And there were even those cynics who took this to actually be a fairly serious defeat for the City of Sierra Madre, with the joy offensive by the paper merely an attempt to put a pretty face on it all. All something that could very well have hurt the re-election chances of MVO darlings Enid Joffe and John Buchanan if not properly spun.

So who is this Police Officers Association that so completely took City Hall to the cleaners? Turns out that its leadership isn't quite as local as you might have assumed. Here's a passage from a March 21, 2009 article in the Union Tribune dealing with an acrimonious Police labor dispute in Escondido.

"The association should be like a quiet giant in the position of, 'Do as I ask and don't p--- me off,' the law firm advises ... As the fight between the City and the Escondido Police Officers Association unfolds, the association appears to be taking some of its cues from the hardball battle plan devised by Lackie, Dammeier & McGill of Upland, which is representing the association in negotiations ... The law firm was founded by a former deputy sheriff, Michael Lackie, and a former police officer, Dieter Dammeier, and represents more than 120 public safety unions in California."

Among those 120 "public safety unions" represented by these gentlemen is the Sierra Madre Police Officers Organization. And if you recognized the names of Lackie and Dammeier you get extra points because those are the two gentlemen that won for their clients this stunning victory at the expense of Sierra Madre.

How they did it really shouldn't be all that big a secret to anyone. Because if you go to the Lackie, Dammeier & McGill website, you will actually be able to read all about the kinds of hardball tactics that have made them the leaders in their field. Some of which you might recognize from what happened here in Sierra Madre.

In a March 23, 2009 piece called "Caring for union cops, not their bully tactics," syndicated columnist Logan Jenkins highlighted a few of them for us:

* Storm City Council: No meeting should take place without association members publicly chastising council members for their lack of concern for public safety.
* Billboards: Nothing seems to get more attention than a billboard entering the city limits which reads that crime is up and the City could care less about your safety. The message being City councils love crime and hate safety. (Remember all those Arcadia billboards last year?)
* Job Fair: Encourage cops to sign up at job fairs, sending an alarming, but false, signal of imminent flight from the department, leaving virtually no one to protect the public from gangs, parolees and sex offenders.
* Work Slowdown: Drive the speed limit, make investigations as time-consuming as possible, while "asking for back-up on most calls." In other words, perform the job in malingering slo-mo, thus inflating the need for more officers and better pay and benefits.
* Focus on an individual: "Avoid spreading your energy. Focus on a city manager, council person, mayor or police chief and keep pressure on until that person assures you of his loyalty and then move on to the next victim." Victim? You heard it right.
* Press Conferences: "Every high-profile crime that takes place should result in the association's uproar at the governing body for not having enough officers on the street, which could have avoided the incident." Read: Exploit suffering, fear and anger.
* In its summation, Lackie, Dammeier & McGill acknowledges that cops often come up with their own variations on the theme of beating public officials into submission. "Just keep in mind, the idea is to annoy your opponents into giving in to your position and almost equally as important, to let them know that next time they should agree with you much sooner."

In the same issue of the MVO cited at the beginning of this article, then Mayor Enid Joffe, in her "Coffee with Joffe" column for that week (grandly entitled "Peace In Our Time?"), had this to say:

"The entire MOU (Memo Of Understanding) is conditioned on the passage of the proposed Utility User Tax (UUT) ballot initiative approved by the City Council on December 18th. Without approval of the Measure, the POA agreement is null and void, and we will all go back to our previous adversarial positions."

I can only assume that by "adversarial positions" the mayor was referring to a possible return by the POA to the kinds of hardball tactics described on the Lackie, Dammeier & McGill website. The ones that drove City Hall to cry uncle and get their MOU on.

Which, judging how the UUT vote turned out, worked quite well for our Police Department.

56 comments:

  1. Ah yes. Who can forget that time not so long ago when
    everything was either "historic" or a "great new moment
    in the history of Sierra Madre." Meanwhile behind the
    scenes the place was being run into the ground by some
    of the biggest nitwits ever assembled.

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  2. While we would all like to be dancing around the May pole or the Wisteria Vine.......we must face up the the facts there are some serious issues.
    I applaud Sir Eric for addressing them.
    Let' hear some opinions, pro and con....I'm open to giving all sincere comments some thought.

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  3. Sierra Madre business ownerApril 17, 2009 at 9:07 AM

    The strategy developed to intimidate residents violates any semblance of good faith. I am now completely convinced that we have to vote on the UUT again, and let's make sure that every single person in town knows that their police officers were advised to victimize the people they are supposed to defend. I am actually pro-law enforcement, but this smacks of developer tactics, and is abhorrent. Our police department had better come out with a public statement of repudiation of the policies of Lackie, Dammeier & McGill

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  4. This is what happens when a city doesn't have a real newspaper. The Weekly is improving, but we still share Beacon Media with 3 other towns. And the Observer or whatever it is called now is a pay to play shill of a rag that sees itself as a political arbiter and bends its "reporting" to suit the agenda of its friends. This is the kind of thing the town should have been talking about a year ago when Measure U was being voted on. But instead all we got was fluff and BS.

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  5. Is it just me or would anyone else be ok with dumping the SMPD and having the LA County Sheriff's replace them? Our property taxes would cover that expense and the UUT could go away. I personally am not a big fan of the SMPD as all they seem to focus on are people speeding down the side streetes (like 30 in a 25) and making sure the people who are walking home from the downtown pubs aren't intoxicated. I walked home New Years Eve with friends and were stopped by the PD and they asked where we were going, where I live and 'what was wrong with me'. I had surgery and had a walking cast on you dumb A**! That was not my first or I am sure my last encounter with the SMPD...get rid of them. Think SM needs to clean house and try a new approach to law enforcement.

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  6. Don't forget that sweet Lisa Volpe, with the personality of a Prison Guard....

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  7. Hahaha...yes...make sure you aren't spraying off your sidewalk or DARE to not have your garage sale permit on hand! Geezzz

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  8. 9:54, during the DSP debates, doing away with the PD and hiring others was discussed a lot, and many horror stories were told about terrible response times of hired out officers.
    A very prominent business person had a relative in the Sheriff's office who confirmed the bad choice that would be.
    I don't know - but I have had to call the SMPD more than a few times, and they have responded quickly and efficiently 98% of the time.

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  9. There seems to be a divide in this town between the police and the citizens. Do we really know each other? No, I don't think we do. How can we build the community's relationship with our officers?

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  10. Maybe if the police didn't harass the citizens of the town we would be more responsive to their needs and salary issues. Doesn't make me want to get to know them with their crappy attitudes. I have lived in SM for 20 years+ and the past couple of years I have really become turned off with the PD and have noticed and definite shift in their attitudes towards the citizens. It didn't used to be this way and it's a shame.

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  11. I don't think anyone is anti- law enforcement, that would be self defeating. However I think it's dumb to pay these guys combat pay here in the closest thing to Mayberry N.C. in Southern California. It's akin to paying a bomb squad to disarm a firecracker. On a humorous note, I was in the DeMolay boys with a guy who is now a Lieutenant with a somewhat local P.D. Right out of Rio Hondo he signed on with the S.M.P.D. circa 1979. I brought up our P.D. with him last night and after the laughing stopped he stated that Sierra Madre should be what it once was, a training department for young policemen and women. He agreed that the lot of posturing, frustrated, martinets we had now were counter-productive.
    Yours Truly, Local Yokel

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  12. This police department has never been anywhere near as competent as the Arcadia PD.
    Granted, Arcadia has lots of funding. Santa Anita Racetrack for one.
    When I first moved here from Arcadia, I was shocked at the police department here.
    That was 20 years ago. It's not any better now.
    And I agree with other posters who don't think the police here in SM are as friendly as they should be in a small town.
    It could sure improve.
    So could the SMFD.
    Let's get rid of the city funding for the library and save 3/4 million to improve public safety!
    Don Watts, Fay Angus and others are calling for reform here. It's time.

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  13. It's kind of like the world view Sierra Madre as this cash cow to be exploited. Cop union, developers, Bart's client list, Sacramento of course. So who defends small cities in this state?

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  14. Sierra Madre, we the citizens are our only defense - and we are lucky enough to have honest people like MacGillivray, Watts & Zimmerman help us fight. But it is a fight.
    And LY, great suggestion about a training department - heck, the whole city hall should be run that way. Remember, Bill Tice's idea about setting city hall up as a kind of school for city officials?
    Why not? We're not that big or complicated, and I'm shocked every time I hear about salaries in city hall (except for that finance officer who just accomplished the impossible in getting our audits up to date - she earned her money). It's also shocking that the police take just over 50% of our budget.
    And yes, 11:18 what about the library? Fay Angus seemed to have some good ideas about how the library can succeed on its own.

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  15. Thanks Sir Eric, I went to the Lackie, Dammeier, and McGill website as shown above and clicked on the NEWSLETTER. I see that on page 2 there is a negotiations update on the Sierra Madre POA. I don't know how current the article is that is posted, but it is informative to the residents of Sierra Madre.The opening line reads "Of the negotiations mentioned in this article, Sierra Madre was by far the most contentious." How do ya like them apples?

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  16. If Fay is suggesting a bond for the library...who the h#@# is going to pay for the bond? The residents will for the next 20 or 30 years. That's who and at a cost of about $200 - $300 a year. The city will then just waste the library money on something else. We must get out of PEERS. It is going to break the city. The UUT doesn't even cover the police MOA.

    The POA better not ask for a fee waiver for their car show. The waiver is to cover THEIR overtime.

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  17. 2:25 - Hmm. Well I certainly hope we didn't hurt anybody's feelings. And while I've never personally been a witness to it, perhaps that explains the surliness some have experienced.

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  18. Fay Angus did not suggest a bond, as far as I heard. She suggested that the Friends of the Library raise the funds, and in consultation with Altadena Library, & others that have managed to do it, get outside funding together.
    If the replays happen, I'll try & hear her remarks again.

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  19. I don't want to pay over 50% of our budget for a police dept. I have been unhappy about the 24% raise since inception. Now that I see the POA strategy, I am LIVID. I have been a crime victim in our Mayberry town and to think that they were not doing their jobs to the fullest extent is more than upsetting.

    And I have an idea that no one else has ever suggested and here it is: Let's do BOTH.

    Lets fire 3/4 of the SMPD! Let's get rid of all the overpaid, bad apples and hire a skeleton force that we can afford -- say our experienced police chief, one or two more experienced and the rest recruits. Then we contract with LA County to provide back up and fill in if we have a local emergency, fire or blue flu (real or imagined). What about that?

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  20. Well, what a clever way to manipulate the voters. Let them know that they won't get the law enforcement folks placated unless they vote a UUT, which of course yields a far greater return than the amount needed to up the cops pay. Doesn't anyone feel extorted? And the voters rolled over even more easily than the "officials" did. Sheriff's department anyone? I mean they get called in whenever there's anything serious happening--remember the traffic fatality on Orange Grove--Sheriff's department investigated that. Bank robbery? Call the sheriff's. Think about it. A straight contract between the City and the County and let the Supervisors deal with the POA tactics.

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  21. i wonder how many of our cops couldn't or wouldn't be hired by the surrounding SGV and major cities within 100 miles

    i'd venture a guess that outside of the Chief(s) in the last dozen years, 98% of our cops could only get hired by SMPD

    if you ever need a real police officer in time of an emergency, locals know it's better to call
    County Sheriffs, they are trained and a lot more respectful

    we need to get rid of the SMPD and turn law enformcement over to the county or contract with Pasadena or Arcadia

    I'd feel alot safer.

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  22. SM doesn't need to fund a library, Pasadena Library has a branch in Hastings Ranch and if asked, Pasadena Public Library would be able to absorb the SM branch.

    It's all nice and hokey, but I don't want to pay for a SM library when I can go to Pasadena and get a better product.

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  23. East and North Altadena seems do just fine with LA County Sheriffs and those homes are just as nice and many are more expensive than SM

    and Altadena doesn't feel the need to incorporate and fund it's own police department

    it's a idea that's run it's course in SM, just like a volunteer fire department

    last thing I want is a part time insurance salesman fighting a fire at my house

    I have a fire, I call Arcadia FD on Orange Grove, I've got that number programmed before SM

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  24. Howard, La Canada Flintridge has the LASD. And while I love SM, La Canada Flintridge is way fancier and snobbier than SM. And they have more business and exposure to crime.

    sir eric, could you please publish a comparison of what the residents of La Canada pay for LASD to what we pay along with population figures?

    We seem to believe in a fantasy that will never be true - that the SMPD is a small town force with small town police tactics. In fact, they are sorehead union guys with guns patrolling the people who are denying them a "fair" contract. Let's bring in the pros from LASD, Arcadia, or Pasadena.

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  25. Before you all decide to go with the "pros", you might want to do a little research on ALADS, the great group of fella's respresenting the Sheriff's Deputies, and Lackie, Dammeier & McGill, the great legal group that represents the Arcadia Police Officer's Association, and the Pasadena Police Officer's Association. You also might be interested in some of the MOU's that these "pros" have been awarded. I'd say "sorehead union guys with guns" on a much larger scale.

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  26. Whatever the city does, don't let Enid Joffe negotiate this contract. She practically killed the city with her historical contract.

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  27. 8:24, the difference is we don't negotiate with lasd union, the county does. we then reach an agreement with lasd that includes salaries, infrastructure, etc.

    the headaches - along with significant costs - are offloaded onto the county.

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  28. Just the Facts Mam.February 5, 2010 at 11:18 AM

    There are a lot of things going on with the PD and the FD. It behoves us all to understand what is happening so that we can as a community be apart of the solution not the problem. True the PD needs some fixing. We should be looking at the names of the PD members and their positions and what they are doing in the union and work with the Chief to correct these problems. It is important to make the best decision based on what we want in a small community like we have, we are small enough to control the PD by instructing the Chief on what we want and then backing the Chief. As far as the FD goes,,, it hasn't been run this well in a long time. The FD is delivering quality service that looks to only get better, we just need the proper support from city hall to run as efficient as possible. You have 3 paid members running and coordinating the emergency response membership of close to a hundred people, remember, 3 paid members responsible for the protection of Life and Property and they are doing a good job, it's good to know the facts. Lets help where we can.

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  29. The Fire Department is just as incompetent as it has been since Roger Lowe took over. The only difference between then and now, is that we are now paying those crooks to continue ripping us off.

    The Fire Department can't even put out a lit match. If there was ever a fire on my property I wouldn't allow those bums on my property. I'm better off with a couple of garden hoses and my neighbors.

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  30. let's assume that smpd is competent. the real question is whether a local police department is a luxury we can afford.

    according to the SM 2010-11 budget, the city has overall expenditures of $6.695M. The police department consumes $3.56M - 53% of the total.

    la canada uses the LASD. La Canada has 20,000 snobs (as opposed to our 10,000 citizens), a larger footprint, and a far larger business base. La Canada pays $2.1M for police services.

    Assuming SM got the same deal despite our smaller size, we would save $1.5M a year. that could be applied to fixing our streets. in the alternative we could use the money to buy open space such as the stonehouse property. on this front the time is right as there will be no market for new homes until the toxic dump at the top of carter is filled with mc mansions.

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  31. @ 1:34

    Sounds good but be careful, PUSD will try to take any savings.

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  32. La Canada pays $2.1M for police services! We can't afford our police. The City of Sierra Madre is a business. Trim the fat. (No joke intended.) We are in a recession/depression we all have to work harder for less money, that includes the police. They should feel more grateful for their non-hood beat and a steady paycheck.

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  33. Public Employee Service ie. Police Dept, City Mgr & Staff, and 3 paid positions on the Fire Dept. are all about job security and pensions. A City of the size of Sierra Madre cannot afford most of the obligations that accompany services like these in our community. Add in the Associations that identify and provide "legal advice and push" for their various members and you have a force in our City that cannot be sustained. It costs way too much!

    The Fire Dept when mobilized with flames coming down our mountainside must defer first to the Forest Service and than to LA County. SM Fire Dept make no decisions and fall in line like the Fire Depts that corrageously show up to protect SM. The Police Dept does police our City and Steets for aberant behavior and respond to calls from residents. But that is mostly a clearing function to be turned over to "authorized" agencies able to address problems that SM Police are not able to investigate. We do not need a Police Chief and Police Force to manage an "incident note taking police force" We need far fewer police and administrator to involve La County Sherrif or agency of law enforcement support.

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  34. Let's get real Sierra Madre... Bring in Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department and the Fire Department. Get rid of all of these childish problems and make a decision for the better of our city. It's sad to say that our currnet P.D. couldn't hold a match to a mall cop. Thanks Diaz!

    It's going to happen sooner or later. Might as well be sooner.

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  35. Just the Facts MamFebruary 6, 2010 at 7:49 AM

    Wish I had more time to discuss the comments here. Most of you are throwing the baby out with the water, why, because you don't know all the facts. We have a council that has done more for the FD than has been done in a long time, and, the FD is looking better than it has in a long time, they just need proper support from City Hall. The PD, they have a leader that came in to handle a lot of existing problems, unfortunately some of these problems are still causing problems. If City Hall would step up to the plate a little closer things could continue to run smoother and at less of a cost, just needs to be run like the business it is. Good communication is the key here, so how about everyone working on the same page with the same information. It can happen.

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  36. I am an "outsider" but really enjoy the discussions and reporting done here on the site...

    I wonder why no discussion is ever made of the costs and ineffectiveness of your City Attorney?

    I suspect you will find that MILLIONS have been paid out to the firm in the last 5 years or so....and how did they help you during the bargaining discussions with the Police Union?

    Seems like they haven't done a very good job of keeping you out of litigation or saving the City money during contract discussions.....I suspect their compensation goes up dramatically when they have to go to court or fight lawsuits???
    And I suspect they received additional compensation to handle the City measure that was approved to fund the Police raises...

    Thus no motivation to stay out of court, instead they prefer it....that is where they make their money.

    For a town your size, it would make sense to hire a firm that provides a yearly flat rate....or even hire a city attorney.

    Just food for thought..

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  37. I agree with JTFM. Most people in town want our own Police Department. We're going to need to fix what we have.

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  38. 8:01, you got that right.
    Sierra Madre has legal services expenses that would raise eyebrows in Beverly Hills....Our Rolls Royce legal services were brought to us in the Shenanigan years, when the Downtown Development Scheme was shining bright, and the then council was rejoicing in their victories at Carter and Stonehouse.

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  39. Don't know where some of you experts got your information; where does it state, or what official has said that SMPD does not provide all law enforcement services to the community? The only exceptions (but still jointly investigated) are: Banks that are FDIC insured are investigated by the FBI. Generally, most cities ask the Sheriff's Department to handle homicide investigations because of their available resources (Homicide Bureau and Crime Lab). Also, in smaller cities, SWAT operations will be handled by the Sheriff's Department. SMPD is a full service department, and whether some choose to believe it, the city would never get a better overall level of service from an outside source.

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  40. OK, 10:16, sounds good, but can we get them to stop suing us?

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  41. Gilman at 8:01

    Thanks for posting on The Tattler. I remember your posts from the old Foothill Cities Blog.

    You always make thoughtful comments!

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  42. 10:16 And I wonder where you get your expertise? You have to go no farther than a minor collision between a day school van and a cyclist to see a requirement that only "the CHP" can investigate a "bus" incident. The SMPD just stands around waiting for the CHP to show up

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  43. it was only a few years ago our esteemed volunteer firedepartment published a brochure with a cover picture that displayed our FD sticking a hose into a window, which is a fundamental error

    my issue is that our FD and SMPD are full of fundamental errors and the FD is bascially a social club

    and our PD shoots unarmed sleeping men in a SUV

    it's time to get rid of them both and step into the 21st century

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  44. See 11:41, there you go making rush judgement again! The California Vehicle states that all accidents involving school buses must be investigated by the California Highway Patrol, regardless of what city the accident occurs in.

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  45. How can you judge the FD tactics from one photo? I've been to many fires in my career when water went into windows. It's called a defensive attack. You know nothing about the photo that was taken. If you saw a photo of the EMT's doing CPR would you say "it's wrong to do CPR on a person who has fallen and can't get up"

    True, Under the Lowe years I too was concerned about the protection of my home. However, there has been changes in that department over the past few years. Don't get me wrong, I still have concerns, but if they keep moving forward, I'm not ready to give up on them.

    As far as the PD...I'm sure the Chief knows who the bad ones are...GET RID OF THEM!!. I will reserve comment on contracting out until we hear REAL numbers.

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  46. I'm in favor of ending the MOU process before it begins and cancelling any existing service contracts the City has with the local pd. Close up shop. These officers are disgruntled and bored, a deadly combination to have when they are also armed. I've never seen such idiotic bumbling as evidenced by the actions of the SMPD. I, too, have lived here over 20 years and have witnessed the steady and sad decline of what was a community-centered police force into one that is reactionary and fascist. It wasn't the community that abandoned the pd, it was the pd that abandoned us. Now they spend their time harrassing residents, business owners, pedestrians (walking home intoxicated from a bar is far preferable to driving and used to be encouraged by the local pd - why are they detaining walkers in Sierra Madre anyway???) and driving around in the big suburban which, for some, is surely an anatomical substitute. We truly do not need a local pd - the sheriff's department would be adequate to meet the not so hefty needs of Sierra Madre. Maybe if we had a more objective police presence, neighbors would not be able to call the police on each other (ye olde Hatfield and McCoy syndrome) and code enforcement would very simply be code enforcement, not a self-serving campaign to prove one's dominance over the locals and to support big development interests in any way possible. Why not try something completely different? If it doesn't work, there are other options we can try, but it is imperative that the first step be taken - get rid of the local pd once and for all.

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  47. So, when do you let an intoxicated person walk home: When they're not stumbling, somewhat stumbling, or definitely stumbling? So, the not stumbling person is allowed to walk home, but later stumbles, falls, and breaks their face; do they get to sue anyone?

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  48. If drunken walking becomes something people are arrested for, wouldn't that encourage them to drive? As long as they aren't endangering anybody but themselves, everybody else is better off.

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  49. It's called being drunk in public and it is against the law. You're better off getting a taxi.

    Lisa

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  50. You think that sweet Sierra Madre air would clear your head and make walking straight a bit easier to do.

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  51. a few years ago, the SMPD would drive a drunk walking resident home and wouldn't ticket them unless it was a regular issue

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  52. I heard somebody got a ticket recently for thinking inappropriate thoughts.

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  53. Uh oh...i'm busted ;)

    Lisa

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  54. It sounds like Larry PLAGIARIZED your article!

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  55. The above comment at 8:52pm is not me...

    Lisa (the important one ;) )

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  56. Bring back Abernethy as chief...Problem(s) solved

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