Friday, May 6, 2016

Dedicato Treatment Center vs. Planning Commission

During public comment at the beginning of the meeting, residents presented the Planning Commission with concerns and requests for clarification and guidance in how to deal with the extremely troubling circumstance of having a drug rehabilitation business move into their neighborhood. The commission could not discuss 22 West Carter specifically because it was not on the agenda.

The commissioners listened to very detailed and eloquent remarks by concerned residents directly affected by the business. Chair Goldstein had anticipated the need for information, and had consulted with the city attorney before the meeting began. After the residents’ remarks, the city attorney told the audience that:

1) The location of this facility came as a surprise to the city.

2) It is not licensed.

The owner of the business qualified it as “supportive housing.” Supportive housing is defined in Health and Safety Code 53260 subsection D. The target population includes people who have interesting substance abuse issues.

The attorney stressed that she is not saying whether this facility does or does not qualify as “supportive housing.” Which I believe is her way of saying this conversation has only just begun.

If it qualifies, facilities like the DTC could be located anywhere in Sierra Madre without a Conditional Use Permit. As many as can find places to rent.

Nice, right? State and Federal Law rules all. Specifically the Americans With Disabilities Act and the Fair Housing Act. Both of which specify that drug addicts are actually people with disabilities, and therefore have needs that are sacrosanct. Obviously that legal viewpoint, along with this community, is what is being exploited here.

Sierra Madre is a nice town where people pay a lot of money to live. "Sober House" operators know that, and we may be seeing many more such places in the near future. The time to fight this is now.

Much of the evening was spent with the members of the Planning Commission asking the City Attorney a lot of questions. Obviously they are trying to determine what it is they can and cannot do to control things such as the Dedicato Treatment Center. Nothing was decided last night. This was much more about fact-finding than anything else. The show will continue.

At the end of the meeting the facility's operations manager, Durlene Escobar, came to the podium with a complaint. The Dedicato TC website (link), which we discussed here quite a bit this week, had received 20,000 unwanted hits over the last three days. This for a place where people would quite naturally wish to spend their time in privacy. She was not happy about that.

Commissioner Goldstein, who made his pile working with various Internet sorts of things, replied that it was the nature of the website itself that opened the Dedicato TC to such unwanted exposure, and had they handled their business differently there wouldn't have been so unwanted a result. Ms. Escobar replied that the address of the facility was nowhere to be found on the website.

Which was kind of a specious response in my opinion. There is a huge picture of 22 W. Carter on their website, and it didn't take all that long for the concerned neighbors and their friends to figure out the address.


But also, this is not the only site that discusses the place. For the record, here is another website, and it has the forbidden address (link).


Then there is this from the California Secretary of State (link).


The address is public knowledge, and is well documented on the Internet. People have a need to know, and free speech is also a protected right in this country. There are similar sites as well, and they are hardly hidden from view.

A video of last night's Planning Commission meeting can be found here. It is fascinating viewing. The sight of a city trying to defend its rights in the face of insane California and Federal laws can be that sometimes.

We will have more for you in the next couple of days.

sierramadretattler.blogspot.com

89 comments:

  1. How come I have to get a business license each year for my single family rental and the Salisians and the Dedicatos don't? They all plead ignorance of the law, more like avoidance, hope to slide under the radar. What are they hiding? The Salisians were hiding the extra house that they built, Dedicatos will have more than six residents?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That have to get a business license. The PC asked last night if a business license was required and the City Attorney said yes.

      Delete
    2. But if they're getting a business license, does that mean businesses can set up in R1 zones?

      Delete
    3. I don't understand how they can offer clients/patients help if they are not licensed/credentialed.
      Sounds like the already out of luck addicts are going to continue their losing streak.

      Delete
    4. The physician they have listed on their website is reportedly very caring with her patients.

      Delete
    5. 11:23 physician? What "physician"? Is there actually a medical doctor involved?

      Delete
    6. Go to their website, it is all there.

      Delete
    7. 6:25, I see a variety of degree claims, but no physician.

      Delete
    8. There's one MD on their staff page, Inna Lamport. But there's no bio, so it's a google goose chase to find out facts about him/her.

      Delete
    9. According to the state, Inna Lamport went to medical school at a "Moscow Medical Stomatologic Institute." No joke. I hear it ranks between the Joseph Stalin Mustache Barber College and the Boris Yeltsin Academy of Bartending. And I doubt Lamport is even full-time, as her office is listed in South Pasadena.

      Oh so funny. Plus: the CEO who shamelessly declared "We have an epidemic" to bend his "treatment" business (Chuck Walker), the imposter "doctor" who hilariously doubles as a seemingly roided fitness guru (Keith Marshall), the director who shares vague resemblance to Captain Planet, and the licensed marriage family therapist with the fake smile that emits an aura of shallow superficiality (Cynthia Zaragoza) . . . . IT IS ALL JUST TOO COMICAL.

      Delete
  2. btw, did the Salisians ever get forced to demolish their unpermitted structure?? Is the City obligated to enforce and ensure it gets removed?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1. I hope so.
      2. They better.

      Delete
  3. They are probably just complying with the HIPAA rules, protecting the privacy of personal health information.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You mean in regards to the complaint about the address, or the hits on the website they paid someone to make?
      Google luxury rehabs and you'll see similar websites. Somebody's got a template.

      Delete
    2. Yes, this all looks very prepackaged and cookie cutter. Kind of like an SMPOA support campaign. You can tell that this is no independent effort.

      Delete
    3. Here's a website where they post a map!
      Some privacy concern
      http://npiprofile.com/npi/1417313214

      Delete
    4. It is cookie cutter, isn't it? There's an attorney of record listed for them. I'm thinking he's fulfilling a niche market need, and that "doctors" come to him to get set up and maintained.
      From corporation wiki: Alex P. Aghajanian, Pasadena lawyer

      Delete
    5. All larded over with a thick gooey layer of political correctness and witless psycho-babble. Hell comes to our town.

      Delete
  4. What's "interesting" about drug and alcohol abuse? This place shows it has been at 22 Carter for over a year! If they know enough to file papers with the state, they know enough to get a license to do business in the city.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It is politically incorrect for you to discuss the drug abuse problems of addicts paying $30,000 a month to live in a rehab facility located in Sierra Madre. Now if you will excuse me, I am off to the nearest safe room. I feel threatened.

      Delete
    2. Does Sierra Madre have a safe room? Is it located at the Hart Park House?

      Delete
    3. I don't think they've been in operation for a year. They may have rented the place then from the house owner.

      Delete
    4. What's the deal with the house owner? Does he get a cut of the profits, other than just monthly rent?

      Delete
    5. 10:42, the owner according to blockshopper is Amy L Heller, but the realtor Amin Marv is mixed in it too. He's listed as the seller in 2003, but he lived there for years, being a famously bad neighbor.

      Delete
  5. Face it, Sierra Madre could become the new treatment center just like Malibu has become haven't you seen the late night commercials?

    ReplyDelete
  6. In California junkies (excuse me, recovering addicts) and child molesters (excuse me, registered citizens) are protected by state laws. How nice.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No junkies. No need to spare their feelings.

      Delete
    2. A Sierra Madre expat who has fought group homes sent some advice to residents. The most critical thing, according to this experienced person, is to be careful that you say nothing that could be used as an example of discrimination.

      Delete
    3. Yes. Everyone is a victim of the people who know how to take care of themselves.

      Delete
    4. There's just so much arrogance from the people who think it's okay to dictate to a neighborhood that it will cater to them. They have no way of knowing what problems and trials different people have come through to get where they are, and no idea about what compassion has been called for in their lives. They just presume a bunch of stereotypes and project their own shortcomings on others. They are the ones who are discriminating against others.

      Delete
  7. You guys hurt my feelings yesterday. I'm boycotting (keeping my mouth shut) for a while. Humph!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bye bye maybe see you at the firehouse pancake breakfast tomorrow morning? Starts at 7 am $5.00 donation suggested.

      Delete
    2. Pancakes are buttery in their goodness, 7:36.

      Delete
  8. Dedicato is definitely using Sierra Madre to sell its services. Follow the link below and scroll to the bottom of the page.
    http://dedicato.rehab/about-us.html

    ReplyDelete
  9. Most of you posters are nothing but hot air.
    Where were all of you last night?
    There were only about six concerned people in the audience.
    I guess if it doesn't affect you, you really don't care.
    Just hot air.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Where were you, boo?

      Delete
    2. That's probably a true reflection of this community.

      I hope someone helps the sweet lady who broke out in tears.

      Delete
    3. I know some people like to envision mobs of people with torches and pitchforks descending on city hall, but that is not how it ever works. It is always a handful of determined people who get things done. Are you trying to claim that the hard-fought contributions of those people are not worthwhile? So you know, I think you are.

      Delete
    4. When the word gets out more, there will be more response. But it's always the few who take up the responsibility first.

      Delete
    5. 9:51, boo was there.

      Delete
    6. 9:41 Was there. That's how I know how many of you were not there.

      Delete
    7. It's the same old problem - getting people to participate in their own government. I remember council member Don Watts saying, "People think government is someone else, but it isn't. It's them."

      Delete
    8. Well said Don! Thanks 11:44 for the quote.

      Delete
  10. Supported housing?
    I thought that was for homeless people.
    The homeless don't have Cadillac insurance coverage that would pay for swanky rehab.
    What's going on there?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You are 100% correct.

      Delete
    2. It is for addicts fortunate enough to still have insurance. Without that they'll want nothing to do with you.

      Delete
    3. I wish there was some way to get the real facts about the financial dealings of this place.

      Delete
    4. Good luck with that. Forthcoming these people are not.

      Delete
    5. My relative is a "Patient" at Dedicato. The entire coarse of treatment has been a "Holistic Joke"....a joke that costs $15,000.00 per month.
      Furthermore....our family lives 2000 plus miles from Sierra Madre.
      We have had serious doubts regarding the legitimacy of this facility. After reading the article in the Sierra Madre Tattler, we feel our concerns have been validated.
      We have searched for licensing, educational & personal background information on the staff. Thanks to the information discovered in The Tattler article, we have clear direction & information to continue this search.
      Our research has also revealed that many "Treatment" centers in California operate in rental homes & buildings. This would appear to be a very lucrative situation for all involved: Center Directors; Center Physicians; Property Managers & Property Owners.
      Most private insurance DOES NOT cover "Sober Living".
      In our situation, insurance was finished after the initial 90 days of Rehab...in a licensed facility, attached to a major medical center, with a staff of 6 Licensed Physicians with Addictionologist credentials.
      We have spoke directly with the director and are very concerned about client safety & treatment modalities used.
      We are not sure what our recourse will ultimately be.
      However, this "Sober Living Facility" needs to be looked at...

      Delete
  11. I hope everyone in town listens to the "sweet crying lady"
    She speaks at 20 minutes into the meeting.
    All the people who spoke made great remarks, but there's another speech everyone should hear by a man 29 minutes into the meeting.
    You can slide the marker to those times so you don't have to listen to the whole thing.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for directing me to the time slot. I did view the video and was most touched by Melissa T.'s presentation. She spoke for all residents of Sierra Madre as a drug rehab home could be placed next door to anyone of us. I'll be watching this issue closely. I send my support to Melissa and her neighbors.

      Delete
  12. One lady said that the house is all they got. That's a dangerous comment to make in our society. There will be sharks out there that tell her that it is not their responsibility if she has no diversified investments.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Most people have the majority of their money in their houses.

      Delete
    2. Somehow I don't pick up genuine concern from your remark 12:17.

      Delete
    3. 12:17, just reviewed the tape. If you mean the first speaker, that lady said the property owners had their houses as their "major investment" - nothing about only investment, or "all they got." Maybe you live in a society where that is not true, but the average Sierra Madrean is not so rich that they can be cavalier about the money they have in their homes.
      She made an excellent point about the drug business making money at the expense of the neighbors.

      Delete
    4. Homes for many are their biggest investments. It might not be an ideal arrangement, but it isn't bad either. That is why a junkie rehab house in the middle of a quiet neighborhood is so jarring for many.

      Delete
  13. Interesting how none of the Dedicato supporters really talk about the money.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes. They like to be thought of as angels of mercy. But they're not really.

      Delete
    2. How much does being an angel of mercy pay?

      Delete
    3. It depends on the insurance carrier.

      Delete
  14. As if these poor residents have not had enough turmoil with One Carter, now they have to deal with this issue! Does it ever end?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Next will be a major earthquake and then the drought of the century. Then it will end.

      Delete
  15. There are a lot of so-called "treatment" nowadays run by scam artists trying to make a profit and get ahead. I have no problem with this. However, I have a problem with "treatment" centers, such as Dedicato Treatment Center, that carelessly open their business in an R-1 residential-zoned area. Though I live about four miles away, I have a feeling allowing Dedicato Treatment Center to continue business may set a troubling precedent in which residential zoned areas are free for exploitation by the mental health "treatment" profit mongers. There is an appropriate place for a profiting "treatment," and 22 Carter Street is not one!

    I did not have a good gut feeling listening to Durlene Escobar. In fact, there seemed a shady vibe to those in support of Dedicato Treatment Center. Because underlying Dedicato's pretended commitment to "caring," lies the hidden motive to scheme potential clients, addicts, of their money and/or insurance payouts. The mere fact Dedicato tried to sneak into our neighborhoods may be testament to their unethical behavior soon to come or, equally troubling, Dedicato Treatment Center's poor business leadership. I have a feeling both are at play - as Chuck Walker, Keith L. Marshall, Durlene Escobar, and Cynthia H. Zaragoza did not even bother to seek the appropriate business licenses.

    There were few of us in attendance of the Planning Commission Meeting. More of you, where ever you live in Sierra Madre, need to speak up against Dedicato Treatment Center. Dedicato is exploiting state and federal law to make big bucks at our expense. The law is more often than not unfair and our city attorney must litigate Dedicato Treatment Center out of the residential zoned area in Carter. I think at this point, exhausting Dedicato through litigation is our only hope. Nip it in the bud before it gets worse.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Excellent post, 4:47. There is so much protest and so many struggles against these hustlers going on in other cities, that I keep hoping precedents will be set elsewhere that we can then apply here.

      Delete
    2. They claim to offer "supportive housing", which means that they do not need a business license, if I understand the law correctly. The City might actually have very limited ways to litigate.
      They can send the half-time code enforcer by the house and check the light situation at night. But I am not sure whether it is not in our best interest to keep the lights on, at least for now.

      Delete
    3. @6:51 PM: If that is the case, and it's "supportive housing," then the frauds at Dedicato Treatment Center should advertise it as supportive housing. Instead, they choose to advertise it as a "treatment center." I guess "Dedicato Supportive Housing" just doesn't have the same ring in attracting insurance coverage and people willing to undergo care of the unlicensed Doctor Keith Marshall.

      Delete
    4. True, 7:07. So if they engage in false advertising and misrepresentation, what else is fake about them?

      Delete
    5. As a true libertarian, I think we should never have let the government infringe on our property rights to begin with. Listen to that one neighbor who complains about having to change his deck to follow code - his entire house is made out of wood, yet some local government official tells him that his deck cannot be made out of wood because of fire concerns.

      Delete
  16. So if the address is all over the internet, including a very clear map from google maps on the npi profile site, why was the lady from the Dedicato Treatment Center at 22 West Carter Avenue in Sierra Madre calling anyone out on privacy?
    What was she doing?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Setting up a complaint. The first sin of the city against the drug rehab house.

      Delete
    2. It would be an idiotic complaint for sure.

      Delete
  17. What is most astonishing to me is that the direct neighbors did not notice this for an entire year.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You're astonished because you don't understand that they hadn't moved junkies into that ugly house until just recently.

      Delete
    2. The house is cursed. Many years ago 22 Carter was rumored to be a drug house. Then the shady realtor moved in. Now the shady Dedicato Treatment Center. Lol!

      Delete
    3. I see, I thought they claim to be in operation since April 2015, or so it says on the California Secretary of State website. Have they been paying business licenses to the State of California for an entire year before they start their operations?

      Delete
    4. 7:03, from a drug house to a drug addiction center? That almost sounds like an improvement.

      Delete
    5. They may have rented the place and filed for incorporation a year ago, but the guy in charge was not given his credential until March 1 this year. Maybe they had to wait to start taking people's money.
      Keith L Marshall
      Registered Psychological Assistant
      #94022362 (original Issue: 3/01/2016)
      22 W. Carter Ave, Sierra Madre, CA 91024

      Delete
    6. So Dr. Keith L. Marshall is not even a Licensed Clinical Psychologist? He is only a Registered Psychological Assistant? Scam, lol.

      Delete
    7. A concerned resident found that information last week. It's on the State of California licensing page. The deal is that Marshall has that license, and it's connected to Dr. Raphael G. Johnson, listed as working at Kaiser. But there's no record of him on the Kaiser directory.
      Curious.

      Delete
    8. I, too, looked at Kaiser Permanente directory and found no record of Raphael Johnson, or even similar sounding/spelled name. Does Raphael Johnson even exist? "Dr. Keith" seems not so "Dr." Maybe Tattler should investigate IF Raphael Johnson is truly associated with Kaiser (as reported to the state).

      Delete
  18. Wasn't it just a month or two ago that one of the houses located next to this phony baloney rehab house was robbed? And they never caught any of the crooks? All of whom somehow just vanished into thin air? Did it occur to the cops that they might have come from this Dedicato dump, and were hiding there?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That is a disturbing possibility. Since the city was surprised that the treatment business was there, did the police know to look there?

      Delete
  19. We are living in a housing bubble and that makes us vulnerable. Many of our upscale neighbors could not afford their houses if they had to buy them now. And they make the mistake that they think this is a good thing. They should be utterly worried. Why? Because people of the same income and means cannot possibly become our neighbors. Instead, people with questionable, if not illegal sources of income will join our neighborhoods, ripping our neighborhoods apart.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous, anonymous , anonymous. How interesting all of you can hop on your pedestals and project your negative, but obviously very well thought out standpoints . Much to say but what I find even more interesting is the absence of a name attatched to any one of these accounts. Scared yourself may become the topic of search for a google surf? I guess comfort never made success.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Whatever you say, anonymous.

      Delete
  21. Co-owners Charles A. "Chuck" Walker and "doctor" Keith L. Marshall, director of operations Durlene Escobar and clinical supervisor and marriage family therapist Cynthia H. Zaragoza proports "Dedicated to Caring." Yet what type of "caring" people slyly open a profiteering business (which judging from its pictures, have more than six beds) in the midst of a RESIDENTIAL ZONED neighborhood, without respectful consideration to their neighbors or even having the common sense decency in notifying our city? So it's clear Walker, Marshall, Escobar, and Zaragoza are not "caring." At minimum, the judgment of these people should be questioned in their decision to place a business smack-dab in the middle of a residential area - and how this may serve indicative of incompetent leadership. A warning to those potentially considering the services of this dubious company.


    It is the duty of our city to defend our rights against Dedicato Treatment Center, Inc.'s profit motive, concealed with pretended "care." A profit motive advanced at the expense of OUR rights and at the expense of what our zoning laws are intended to protect: property value, as well as the character of our community (i.e. no business enterprise in residential area). If Dedicato desires to do business, they should do so in a commercial or industrial area. Very simple.

    My wife and I are not wealthy. We live paycheck-to-paycheck. We have two children, who attend our public schools. We pay our taxes. The majority of our income is paid to our mortgage. Our home is our only major investment. So "treatment centers" (excuse me, "supportive housing") are an assault on our only investment - as these types of businesses have proven problematic in other cities (San Clemente and Costa Mesa, for example). We purchased our home with the expectation it remain bordered only residential homes - not business.

    I grew up in Sierra Madre, born and raised, a 44 year resident. The least I expect from our city is to preserve the sanctity of our RESIDENTIAL neighborhoods from the creepy business interests to the likes of Charles A. Walker, Keith Marshall, Durlene Escobar and Cynthia Zaragoza.

    The next Planning Commission Meeting is Thursday, May 19 at 7:00 pm in the City Hall Council Chamber.

    If you care about our community, mark the meeting on your calendar. If we don't work together to stop this now, "supportive housing" may soon come to your neighborhood. It's a loophole these "rehab hustler" thugs exploit, so perhaps we can determine remedies and legal action to fix this clear exploitation of our city's citizens.

    ReplyDelete
  22. On a few occasions, there have been many cars belonging to people from 22 W. Carter on both sides of the street that renders that portion of Carter a one-way street. During those times, I (or the other car(s)) have had to yield to one another so that we can drive-by the bottlenecked area. This is one reason why it is zoned as an R1 (residential) area. Dedicato Treatment Center is a business. It does not belong in a residential neighborhood. This area was never constructed for the purpose of having the volume of people that come and go from this place. The streets are too narrow. At least when 22 W. Carter was a small white cottage a few years back, never was that portion of Carter bottlenecked.

    Secondly, Dedicato and Escobar are trying to cleverly manipulate us by playing nice with pretended transparency and invitations to Dedicato to see what they are about. I say don't buy into it. If I ever decide to sell my property and am given low offers and/or have to disclose Dedicato as being a few doors down from me, these inconsiderate people will not recompense me of potentially several thousand dollars that my property has lost in value due to their selfish business. They could care less about my family and I.

    Suffice to say, the Dedicato people have been inconsiderate in how they do business. They have caused a lot of stress for my neighbors and I. I feel much empathy for their immediate/adjacent neighbors as Dedicato is lit up like a Las Vegas business at night (a comparison brought by an unfortunate adjacent neighbor of this place). Even from a few doors down, their lighting system can be irritatingly seen from my window. The light pollution from this place takes away from the intended preservation of dark skies.

    I just feel very upset that the Dedicato people have proved so inconsiderate in how they selected Carter to do its business in at our expense. I can't reiterate how unfair it is to have a business in an R1 zoned area. I own an industrial company and am forced into strictly industrial zoned areas and must comply with an array of permits and licensing. I also wonder if the burglary a few months ago was in anyway related to Dedicato. This is a usually quiet neighborhood and it was a bit strange that the burglary coincided with the opening of Dedicato.

    Lastly, I think people have the right to mental health help. I have a close family member who had problems and had to go into treatment. But I don't think I would ever trust a company such as Dedicato in seeing how they did not seem to care about their very own neighbors when they opened their business up. How can a potential client trust these people to take care of them?

    I would have commented on this article sooner; but I was only just recently provided a link to this website by my more savvy neighbor.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Hi, I don't live in your neighborhood, but my daughter has recently been associated with Dedicado. This Dr. Marshall that owns and operates the facility only cares about the money he is making from the insurance companies and the clients. My daughter is a recovering alcoholic and so is everyone who works there as a "tech", glorified janitor/driver.
    She is 41/2 years into her sobriety, and doing extremely well.
    She is a graduate of FIDM, and has been working in the fashion industry since 2007, and has been successfully employed since she was 17 years old.
    Dr Marshall was seemingly taking her under his wing, told her that she has a lot of potential in therapy, and that he would accommodate her school schedule, and even buy her books.
    Well... the week she started school, one of the techs, not Dr Marshall, called her and told her the schedule had been changed, she was no longer full time, and was in probation for 2 weeks. Apparently the reasons given for this were, she didn't wipe down the kitchen counter good enough and left without taking the trash out at the end of her 3-11pm shift.
    The day after this, the patients/clients were told that he didn't fire people that he let them fire themselves. They told my daughter to get out of there. Nice.
    2 days later, she received a phone call from the director, again not Dr Marshall, who Informed her that she was being taken off the schedule completely, while they figured a few things out.
    Prior to this, the Dr had told her that she had too much on her plate and only take 1 class at school, instead of 3. She followed his advice, considering him a mentor and dropped the 2 classes, which are now closed.
    So, now she has no job, first time since 2005, and 1 class.
    So, I guess what I am trying to say is... this Dr. whom is a recovering alcoholic himself, and seems to have a long rap sheet of arrests and felonies.
    Has no compassion whatsoever, for the people who work for him. Who knows how he treats the patients/clients. I do know that he has a big turnover of techs.
    My daughter told me that she has not, in the 4+ years of sobriety, gotten so close to loosing her sobriety, And all over this cowardly fraud.
    If you want him out of the neighborhood, look a little closer. Ask who runs the patient groups.

    ReplyDelete